BIND Masters and slaves

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BIND Masters and slaves

Brett Delmage
I just read
GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology

at
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology

The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
still refers to masters and slaves.

Is this ARM the most recent version?

Are there any discussions about changing terms?

Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave"
are the established terms, I believe?

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Bind-Users forum mailing list
ISC had a statement about it a time ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will not solve the issue.

And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and lines of code.

Regards,

On 14 Jun 2020, at 19:38, Brett Delmage <[hidden email]> wrote:

I just read
GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology

at https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology

The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
still refers to masters and slaves.

Is this ARM the most recent version?

Are there any discussions about changing terms?

Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave" are the established terms, I believe?

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Brett Delmage
On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Vinícius Ferrão wrote:

> ISC had a statement about it a time ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

Thanks. I vaguely recalled something but my search didn't turn
this up.

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Nis Wechselberg
In reply to this post by Bind-Users forum mailing list
Totally not BIND related, but in BDSM "top" and "bottom" are quite
widely used. So there is a non-slavery-related nomenclature there as well.


Am 15.06.20 um 00:53 schrieb Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users:

> ISC had a statement about it a time
> ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248
>
> You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of
> terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of
> changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.
>
> For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and
> documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master
> and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will
> not solve the issue.
>
> And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts
> and lines of code.
>
> Regards,
>
>> On 14 Jun 2020, at 19:38, Brett Delmage <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>> I just read
>> GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology
>>
>> at
>> https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology
>>
>> The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
>> https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
>> still refers to masters and slaves.
>>
>> Is this ARM the most recent version?
>>
>> Are there any discussions about changing terms?
>>
>> Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and
>> "slave" are the established terms, I believe?
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
>> unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
>> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
>> information.
>>
>>
>> bind-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Ondřej Surý
In reply to this post by Brett Delmage
Hi Brett,

BIND 9 already uses primary/secondary as keywords and we are actively
working on updating BIND 9 to match the canon defined in RFC 8499.

You can find the latest documentation from the BIND 9 development branch
here: https://bind9.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

Cheers,
Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý
[hidden email]

> On 15 Jun 2020, at 00:38, Brett Delmage <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I just read
> GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology
>
> at https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/1722223/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology
>
> The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
> https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
> still refers to masters and slaves.
>
> Is this ARM the most recent version?
>
> Are there any discussions about changing terms?
>
> Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave" are the established terms, I believe?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Tony Finch
In reply to this post by Bind-Users forum mailing list
Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
> hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
> political correctness.

"Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
granted.

In any case, master/slave is bad terminology because it is actively
misleading. It suggests that zone transfers to downstream servers are
under the control of the upstream servers, which is definitely not the
case. And it suggests a binary categorization of servers which is also
wrong, because zone transfers often form a multi-level cascade between
servers that perform several different functions. It's better to talk
about update servers, signing servers, zone transfer servers, public or
private or stealth authoritative servers. For zone transfers it's better
to talk about which servers are upstream and downstream of each other in
the distribution network.

You should find that your writing is easier to understand, both for
experts and non-experts, if you don't use the bad old terminology.

Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch  <[hidden email]>  http://dotat.at/
Plymouth: Cyclonic 3 to 5. Mainly slight. Thundery showers. Good, occasionally
poor.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Ben Lavender
The terminology is fairly misleading, as in the slave is not doing the
work on-behalf of or instruction of the the master. But there is ways
for the master to influence the slaves; such as "allow-transfer".

I don't see the big issue with making a terminology change in this case.

On 15/06/2020 15:38, Tony Finch wrote:

> Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
>> hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
>> political correctness.
> "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
> especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
> granted.
>
> In any case, master/slave is bad terminology because it is actively
> misleading. It suggests that zone transfers to downstream servers are
> under the control of the upstream servers, which is definitely not the
> case. And it suggests a binary categorization of servers which is also
> wrong, because zone transfers often form a multi-level cascade between
> servers that perform several different functions. It's better to talk
> about update servers, signing servers, zone transfer servers, public or
> private or stealth authoritative servers. For zone transfers it's better
> to talk about which servers are upstream and downstream of each other in
> the distribution network.
>
> You should find that your writing is easier to understand, both for
> experts and non-experts, if you don't use the bad old terminology.
>
> Tony.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Michael De Roover
In reply to this post by Bind-Users forum mailing list

I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify to me that this is the server in control of the zone files for the other ones in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the zone files and apply them while not having any further control over the zone files themselves. In my external name servers it also goes paired with authority - slave authorities that are authoritative to the internet but slaves in that they replicate from an internal master. This is not something you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere technical jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black lives matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that the former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter but murder, and that more protests will emerge (minus the plundering which was the case here in Brussels).

However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon which will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate nomenclature changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to survive just because we give things a different name. Instead we'd border closer to censorship which we had during the wars, and still do in heavily oppressed countries like North Korea, China etc. It's ironic that what these people are pushing for in practice is exactly the thing they seemingly seek to eradicate.

There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace master branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be unaffected with my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository mirrors from GitHub however. For GitHub users, that change will likely break every one of their repositories that defaults to master and require adjustments from GitHub users of which many might not even know what branches are. That's the real impact of that and I find it deeply worrying.

I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no affiliation with the project whatsoever.

On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users wrote:
ISC had a statement about it a time ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will not solve the issue.

And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and lines of code.

--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover

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RE: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Bind-Users forum mailing list
Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.  


V/R
Jim DeCaro
DISA
Systems Administrator
Windows and Unix Server Operations
FE222/DoDNet Service Section
Defense Enclave Services Directorate
☎ 301-225-8180
☎ 301-375-8180
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

"If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got."


-----Original Message-----
From: bind-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Michael De Roover
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 1:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links contained within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser.


________________________________




I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify to me that this is the server in control of the zone files for the other ones in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the zone files and apply them while not having any further control over the zone files themselves. In my external name servers it also goes paired with authority - slave authorities that are authoritative to the internet but slaves in that they replicate from an internal master. This is not something you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere technical jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black lives matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that the former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter but murder, and that more protests will emerge (minus the plundering which was the case here in Brussels).

However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon which will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate nomenclature changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to survive just because we give things a different name. Instead we'd border closer to censorship which we had during the wars, and still do in heavily oppressed countries like North Korea, China etc. It's ironic that what these people are pushing for in practice is exactly the thing they seemingly seek to eradicate.

There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace master branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be unaffected with my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository mirrors from GitHub however. For GitHub users, that change will likely break every one of their repositories that defaults to master and require adjustments from GitHub users of which many might not even know what branches are. That's the real impact of that and I find it deeply worrying.

I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no affiliation with the project whatsoever.


On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users wrote:


        ISC had a statement about it a time ago: Caution-https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 < Caution-https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 >

        You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

        For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will not solve the issue.

        And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and lines of code.


--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Ben Lavender
Some servers already do

Regards

Ben Lavender

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 19:02 DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) via bind-users, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers. 


V/R
Jim DeCaro
DISA
Systems Administrator
Windows and Unix Server Operations
FE222/DoDNet Service Section
Defense Enclave Services Directorate
☎ 301-225-8180
☎ 301-375-8180
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

"If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got."


-----Original Message-----
From: bind-users <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Michael De Roover
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 1:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links contained within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser.


________________________________




I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify to me that this is the server in control of the zone files for the other ones in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the zone files and apply them while not having any further control over the zone files themselves. In my external name servers it also goes paired with authority - slave authorities that are authoritative to the internet but slaves in that they replicate from an internal master. This is not something you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere technical jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black lives matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that the former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter but murder, and that more protests will emerge (minus the plundering which was the case here in Brussels).

However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon which will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate nomenclature changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to survive just because we give things a different name. Instead we'd border closer to censorship which we had during the wars, and still do in heavily oppressed countries like North Korea, China etc. It's ironic that what these people are pushing for in practice is exactly the thing they seemingly seek to eradicate.

There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace master branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be unaffected with my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository mirrors from GitHub however. For GitHub users, that change will likely break every one of their repositories that defaults to master and require adjustments from GitHub users of which many might not even know what branches are. That's the real impact of that and I find it deeply worrying.

I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no affiliation with the project whatsoever.


On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users wrote:


        ISC had a statement about it a time ago: Caution-https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 < Caution-https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 >

        You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

        For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will not solve the issue.

        And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and lines of code.


--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Michael De Roover
In reply to this post by Bind-Users forum mailing list

Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.

What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. Meanwhile projects such as Opal and recently Rubocop as well were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support in my effort to end racism, which I do support, and quite heavily so.

On 6/15/20 8:00 PM, DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) wrote:
Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.  
--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover

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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Kevin Darcy
[ Classification Level: PUBLIC ]

My 2 cents...

The "master" nomenclature is appropriate from a *data*dependency* standpoint. The "master" holds the "master copy" of the zone contents ( https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/master-copy). All other copies are duplicates of that.

Where it is inaccurate, is from a *functional* perspective, describing replication. The so-called "master" doesn't reach out and *force* the "slaves" to replicate the zone. It can send a NOTIFY, but that's just a suggestion. Whenever an entity can choose to act, or not act, then "slave" is the wrong term to use. Real-life slaves had no such freedom.

DNS has always had this dual identity as both a database architecture and a network connectivity architecture. So, I would say, keep the "master" terminology only in the context of the database aspects of DNS, maybe limited to combining phrases such as "master file" or "master copy". When discussing replication, however, perhaps it is more appropriate to switch to the primary/secondary nomenclature, or maybe even replication-client/replication-server nomenclature.

                                                                                                - Kevin
 

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 2:17 PM Michael De Roover <[hidden email]> wrote:

Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.

What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. Meanwhile projects such as Opal and recently Rubocop as well were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support in my effort to end racism, which I do support, and quite heavily so.

On 6/15/20 8:00 PM, DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) wrote:
Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.  
--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
_______________________________________________
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Tim Daneliuk
In reply to this post by Michael De Roover
On 6/15/20 1:15 PM, Michael De Roover wrote:
> Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.
>
> What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. Meanwhile projects such as Opal <https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941> and recently Rubocop <https://github.com/rubocop-hq/rubocop/issues/8091> as well were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support in my effort to end racism, which I /do/ support, and quite heavily so.
>


Hear Hear -


This isn't political.  It's just dumb.

P.S. I wish the people all spun up on terminological trivia would actually
expend their energy and activist voice to stop _real_ slavery which
goes on routinely in parts of Africa, Eastern Europe, and in China
every single day.  But trying to grasp what is happening, say, to the
Uyghurs is just way more work than your virtue card punched ...
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Leroy Tennison
I sense an RFC has already dictated primary and secondary but, if not and we're going to go to the trouble of renaming something, let's name it right such as "source" and "copy".


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On 6/15/20 1:15 PM, Michael De Roover wrote:
> Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.
>
> What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. Meanwhile projects such as Opal <https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941> and recently Rubocop <https://github.com/rubocop-hq/rubocop/issues/8091> as well were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support in my effort to end racism, which I /do/ support, and quite heavily so.
>


Hear Hear -


This isn't political.  It's just dumb.

P.S. I wish the people all spun up on terminological trivia would actually
expend their energy and activist voice to stop _real_ slavery which
goes on routinely in parts of Africa, Eastern Europe, and in China
every single day.  But trying to grasp what is happening, say, to the
Uyghurs is just way more work than your virtue card punched ...
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Brett Delmage
In reply to this post by Bind-Users forum mailing list
After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs and
code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going to
communicate this to people?

How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just
stop trying?


Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the
"crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over
"cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's nicely
terse.

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t




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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Tony Finch
In reply to this post by Kevin Darcy
Kevin Darcy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The "master" nomenclature is appropriate from a *data*dependency*
> standpoint. The "master" holds the "master copy" of the zone contents (
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/master-copy). All
> other copies are duplicates of that.

There isn't in general a single source of truth for zone data in many DNS
setups. For example, much of the zone contents may come from a database,
possibly augmented by a zone file fragment, and there may be a separate
signing server that keys its keys from a third place. So it's wrong to
insist that the bad old terminology has to be used with the DNS, because
it's often completely incorrect.

Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch  <[hidden email]>  http://dotat.at/
Bailey: Cyclonic, mainly northwest, 3 to 5. Moderate, occasionally slight at
first in east. Occasional rain. Good, occasionally poor.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Michael De Roover
In reply to this post by Brett Delmage
Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that
after a few years I mastered something. System administration,
electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several
years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first
profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general.
Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be
experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite
interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how deep we
want it to go I guess.

Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for
shits and giggles :D

On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:

> After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs
> and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going
> to communicate this to people?
>
> How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just
> stop trying?
>
>
> Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the
> "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over
> "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's
> nicely terse.
>
> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t
>
--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Mauricio Tavares
In reply to this post by Tony Finch
On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:38 AM Tony Finch <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
> > hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
> > political correctness.
>
> "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
> especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
> granted.
>

Being considerate to others should not be associated with politics,
something the term "political correctness" is.

There is a term in Africa for those who use "especially people who do
not have many of the advantages we might take for granted" in their
sentences; it is not a particularly positive term.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Gregory Sloop
In reply to this post by Michael De Roover
Re: BIND Masters and slaves This whole discussion seems so misguided.
The TLDR; version, at least for me is;
Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite and kind to those around you, and change that language to live up to those ideals when you can?

Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell impolite/angry/mysoginistic epithets and racial insults at those around you.

But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a few minutes considering how you'd feel if people did equally insensitive things to your mom, you sister, your wife, or your best friend.

When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not using/changing terms like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to my mind, kind of hyperbolic.

You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to call it "being nice" or "polite" or "kind."
When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and caring? [That's a rhetorical question, so no need to "answer" it.]

The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists for really polite and helpful people over the many years I've subscribed and participated. IME, these lists have been far superior to nearly any other lists I've been a part of. Super helpful. Really nice people> Super respectful. Totally awesome. I'm nearly always chuffed to see the behavior here.

I hope that continues.


MDR> Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that
MDR> after a few years I mastered something. System administration,
MDR> electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several
MDR> years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first
MDR> profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general.
MDR> Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be
MDR> experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite
MDR> interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how deep we
MDR> want it to go I guess.

MDR> Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for
MDR> shits and giggles :D

MDR> On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
>> After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs
>> and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going
>> to communicate this to people?

>> How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just
>> stop trying?


>> Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the
>> "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over
>> "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's
>> nicely terse.

>> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

Ted Hatfield
In reply to this post by Mauricio Tavares
On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, Mauricio Tavares wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:38 AM Tony Finch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Vin?cius Ferr?o via bind-users <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
>>> hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn?t go any further due to
>>> political correctness.
>>
>> "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
>> especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
>> granted.
>>
>
> Being considerate to others should not be associated with politics,
> something the term "political correctness" is.
>
> There is a term in Africa for those who use "especially people who do
> not have many of the advantages we might take for granted" in their
> sentences; it is not a particularly positive term.

Regardless of whether you consider this a political issue or not the
terminology master/slave has a poor connotation for large swathes of the
general public.

In the time we live in the change from master/slave to primary/secondary
is both justified and appropriate.

Although nobody likes to change, this is a fairly minor issue and not
deserving of complaint.

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