Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
53 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Klaus Darilion-2
Hello!

What is the rationale of:

bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
...
  * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon


Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and automation software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I think it is very confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04 or Debian 11 is released.

So I really do not understand this renaming.

The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).

It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04.

regards
Klaus
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald


Am 15.04.20 um 08:51 schrieb Klaus Darilion:

> Hello!
>
> What is the rationale of:
>
> bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
> ...
>   * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon
>
>
> Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and automation software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I think it is very confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04 or Debian 11 is released.
>
> So I really do not understand this renaming.
>
> The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
>
> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04

you confuse the upstream project with your distribution

bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald


Am 15.04.20 um 08:56 schrieb Reindl Harald:

>
>
> Am 15.04.20 um 08:51 schrieb Klaus Darilion:
>> Hello!
>>
>> What is the rationale of:
>>
>> bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
>> ...
>>   * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon
>>
>>
>> Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and automation software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I think it is very confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04 or Debian 11 is released.
>>
>> So I really do not understand this renaming.
>>
>> The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
>>
>> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
>
> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
>
> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names

BTW in case Debian/Ubuntu when they do RTFM it wouldn't be an issue at all

[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status sddm
● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
preset: enabled)
  Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d

[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status display-manager.service
● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
   Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
preset: enabled)
  Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
           └─security.conf, start-before.conf

[root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service
[Unit]
Description=Simple Desktop Display Manager
Conflicts=[hidden email]
After=[hidden email] systemd-logind.service

[Service]
ExecStart=/usr/bin/sddm
Restart=always
EnvironmentFile=-/etc/sysconfig/sddm

[Install]
Alias=display-manager.service
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Klaus Darilion-2
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: bind-users <[hidden email]> Im Auftrag von Reindl
> Harald
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2020 09:05
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to
> named?
>
>
>
> Am 15.04.20 um 08:56 schrieb Reindl Harald:
> >
> >
> > Am 15.04.20 um 08:51 schrieb Klaus Darilion:
> >> Hello!
> >>
> >> What is the rationale of:
> >>
> >> bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
> >> ...
> >>   * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon
> >>
> >>
> >> Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and
> automation software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I
> think it is very confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04
> or Debian 11 is released.
> >>
> >> So I really do not understand this renaming.
> >>
> >> The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time
> was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would
> have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so
> important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and
> usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
> >>
> >> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
> >
> > you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
> >
> > bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
> > httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
> > beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
>
> BTW in case Debian/Ubuntu when they do RTFM it wouldn't be an issue at all
>
> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status sddm
> ● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
> preset: enabled)
>   Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
>
> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status display-manager.service
> ● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
> preset: enabled)
>   Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
>            └─security.conf, start-before.conf
>
> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service
> [Unit]
> Description=Simple Desktop Display Manager
> Conflicts=[hidden email]
> After=[hidden email] systemd-logind.service
>
> [Service]
> ExecStart=/usr/bin/sddm
> Restart=always
> EnvironmentFile=-/etc/sysconfig/sddm
>
> [Install]
> Alias=display-manager.service

Can you please describe what you want to point out? I can not follow you.

Klaus
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Klaus Darilion-2
In reply to this post by Reindl Harald
> > It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
>
> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
>
> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names

I do not complain about the version number, but of the name.

And in my opinion it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if the name of the software is Apache.

regards
Klaus


_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald
In reply to this post by Klaus Darilion-2


Am 15.04.20 um 09:08 schrieb Klaus Darilion:

>>>> The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time
>> was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would
>> have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so
>> important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and
>> usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
>>>>
>>>> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
>>>
>>> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
>>>
>>> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
>>> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
>>> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
>>
>> BTW in case Debian/Ubuntu when they do RTFM it wouldn't be an issue at all
>>
>> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status sddm
>> ● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
>>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
>> preset: enabled)
>>   Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
>>
>> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status display-manager.service
>> ● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
>>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
>> preset: enabled)
>>   Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
>>            └─security.conf, start-before.conf
>>
>> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service
>> [Unit]
>> Description=Simple Desktop Display Manager
>> Conflicts=[hidden email]
>> After=[hidden email] systemd-logind.service
>>
>> [Service]
>> ExecStart=/usr/bin/sddm
>> Restart=always
>> EnvironmentFile=-/etc/sysconfig/sddm
>>
>> [Install]
>> Alias=display-manager.service
>
> Can you please describe what you want to point out? I can not follow you

that every other distibution calls it all the time "named" and "httpd"
and it's painful every time you toch a debian setup you have to remember
"apache" and "bind9"

what if bind10 wouldn't have failed and you get a software update after
some years?

what if httpd releases 3.0 ina few years besides that "apache" is
completly wrong to begin with becaus eit could be Apache Tomcat, Apache
Trafficserver, Apache Httpd

mainly that this is a distribution issue and when they are smart you can
type "systemctl reload named" and "systemctl reload bind9" without
confusing people which know it's named outside the debian world

Units can be aliased (have an alternative name), by creating a symlink
from the new name to the existing name in one of the unit search paths.
For example, systemd-networkd.service has the alias
dbus-org.freedesktop.network1.service, created during installation as a
symlink, so when systemd is asked through D-Bus to load
dbus-org.freedesktop.network1.service, it'll load
systemd-networkd.service. As another example, default.target — the
default system target started at boot — is commonly symlinked (aliased)
to either multi-user.target or graphical.target to select what is
started by default. Alias names may be used in commands like disable,
start, stop, status, and similar, and in all unit dependency directives,
including Wants=, Requires=, Before=, After=
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald
In reply to this post by Klaus Darilion-2


Am 15.04.20 um 09:09 schrieb Klaus Darilion:

>>> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
>>
>> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
>>
>> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
>> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
>> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
>
> I do not complain about the version number, but of the name.
>
> And in my opinion it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if the name of the software is Apache

seriously?

https://www.apache.org/

https://downloads.apache.org/httpd/
https://downloads.apache.org/tomcat/
https://downloads.apache.org/trafficserver/

and what do you do after httpd-3.0 is out?

you won't have httpd2 and httpd3 on the same system from your distribution


_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Erich Eckner
In reply to this post by Klaus Darilion-2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020, Klaus Darilion wrote:

>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: bind-users <[hidden email]> Im Auftrag von Reindl
>> Harald
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2020 09:05
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to
>> named?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 15.04.20 um 08:56 schrieb Reindl Harald:
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 15.04.20 um 08:51 schrieb Klaus Darilion:
>>>> Hello!
>>>>
>>>> What is the rationale of:
>>>>
>>>> bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
>>>> ...
>>>>   * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and
>> automation software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I
>> think it is very confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04
>> or Debian 11 is released.
>>>>
>>>> So I really do not understand this renaming.
>>>>
>>>> The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time
>> was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would
>> have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so
>> important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and
>> usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
>>>>
>>>> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
>>>
>>> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
>>>
>>> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
>>> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
>>> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
>>
>> BTW in case Debian/Ubuntu when they do RTFM it wouldn't be an issue at all
>>
>> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status sddm
>> ● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
>>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
>> preset: enabled)
>>   Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
>>
>> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ systemctl status display-manager.service
>> ● sddm.service - Simple Desktop Display Manager
>>    Loaded: loaded (/usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service; enabled; vendor
>> preset: enabled)
>>   Drop-In: /etc/systemd/system/display-manager.service.d
>>            └─security.conf, start-before.conf
>>
>> [root@srv-rhsoft:~]$ cat /usr/lib/systemd/system/sddm.service
>> [Unit]
>> Description=Simple Desktop Display Manager
>> Conflicts=[hidden email]
>> After=[hidden email] systemd-logind.service
>>
>> [Service]
>> ExecStart=/usr/bin/sddm
>> Restart=always
>> EnvironmentFile=-/etc/sysconfig/sddm
>>
>> [Install]
>> Alias=display-manager.service
>
> Can you please describe what you want to point out? I can not follow you.
You can set aliases in the service file and call the service whatever you
like (multiple names possible, too). I admit, this has nothing to do with
the package name.

Though: you should complain to debian/ubuntu/..., not upstream (=here)
about package name changes.

Regarding version numbers: In the world, where I come from (arch linux),
version numbers are only appended for *legacy* packages - e.g. "bind9"
would be valid, if there is a "bind" package, that has a higher version
than 9. Btw.: bind is packaged as "bind" for years on arch linux.

regards,
Erich

>
> Klaus
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> bind-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=5NW9
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [External] AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Kevin A. McGrail
In reply to this post by Klaus Darilion-2
On 4/15/2020 3:09 AM, Klaus Darilion wrote:
> I do not complain about the version number, but of the name.
>
> And in my opinion it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if the name of the software is Apache.

For me, adding the version number can make sense if there is an
intention to have both X and Y running on machines simultaneously.  Or
if there is a need / ability to choose one version with more than one
being provided by the distro.  Apache httpd 1 versus 2, was a real
choice not many years ago.  MySQL 5 versus 8 has a similar situation
now.  I'm sure I can point out others where the version number in the
service is a pathway to upgrades.

And with Apache HTTPD, you've picked a special naming case.  It is the
granddaddy of the entire Apache Software Foundation and has morphed from
being called just "Apache" to "Apache httpd".  Calling the service
apachehttpd might be good and differentiate it from the ~383 Apache
projects (https://projects.apache.org/) and other httpd daemons.   But
it's been just httpd in a lot of distros for over 20 years so a LOT of
historical convention here.

Unfortunately, the exact name is up to the distribution, not really the
project.  So this is really a discussion for an Ubuntu/Debian mailing
list, not this one. 

Regards,

KAM

_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [External] AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald


Am 15.04.20 um 09:21 schrieb Kevin A. McGrail:

> On 4/15/2020 3:09 AM, Klaus Darilion wrote:
>> I do not complain about the version number, but of the name.
>>
>> And in my opinion it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if the name of the software is Apache.
>
> For me, adding the version number can make sense if there is an
> intention to have both X and Y running on machines simultaneously.  Or
> if there is a need / ability to choose one version with more than one
> being provided by the distro.  Apache httpd 1 versus 2, was a real
> choice not many years ago.  MySQL 5 versus 8 has a similar situation
> now.  I'm sure I can point out others where the version number in the
> service is a pathway to upgrades.

in all that cases the default package of the distribution (at least
outside debian) is unversioned and you can optin to an older or newer
major version by explicit install "mysql8"

but the expected default in just do "dnf install mysqld" and if you can
install both at the same time (depends on packaging)
https://linux.die.net/man/8/alternatives is the way to go
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Klaus Darilion-2
In reply to this post by Reindl Harald
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: bind-users <[hidden email]> Im Auftrag von Reindl
> Harald
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2020 09:17
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to
> named?
>
>
>
> Am 15.04.20 um 09:09 schrieb Klaus Darilion:
> >>> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
> >>
> >> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
> >>
> >> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
> >> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
> >> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
> >
> > I do not complain about the version number, but of the name.
> >
> > And in my opinion it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if the name
> of the software is Apache
>
> seriously?
>
> https://www.apache.org/
>
> https://downloads.apache.org/httpd/
> https://downloads.apache.org/tomcat/
> https://downloads.apache.org/trafficserver/
>
> and what do you do after httpd-3.0 is out?
>
> you won't have httpd2 and httpd3 on the same system from your
> distribution

Why not? With postgresql it is very common. You have postgresql-X and a meta package pointing to the newest version. That's propapbly not what "every distribution" does, but how a good distribution like Debian and Ubuntu does it.

It is very very sane to have the version number in the package, and a package without version number pointing to the newest version. Eg. this is how the Linux kernel is handled in Debian/Ubuntu.

What about python? Only a single python interpreter is allowed with your good distros? In Debian you have all oft hem installed at the same time - this is a very very good approach!

But as you have missed again - I do not complain about the version number, but that a "winning team" was changed without seeing a problem.

regards
Klaus
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald


Am 15.04.20 um 09:42 schrieb Klaus Darilion:

>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: bind-users <[hidden email]> Im Auftrag von Reindl
>> Harald
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2020 09:17
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to
>> named?
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 15.04.20 um 09:09 schrieb Klaus Darilion:
>>>>> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04
>>>>
>>>> you confuse the upstream project with your distribution
>>>>
>>>> bind9 was completly wrong in the debian world as well as apache2 for
>>>> httpd, on sane distributions it's "httpt" and "named" all the years
>>>> beause it's nonsense to throw vesions in service names
>>>
>>> I do not complain about the version number, but of the name.
>>>
>>> And in my opinion it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if the name
>> of the software is Apache
>>
>> seriously?
>>
>> https://www.apache.org/
>>
>> https://downloads.apache.org/httpd/
>> https://downloads.apache.org/tomcat/
>> https://downloads.apache.org/trafficserver/
>>
>> and what do you do after httpd-3.0 is out?
>>
>> you won't have httpd2 and httpd3 on the same system from your
>> distribution
>
> Why not? With postgresql it is very common. You have postgresql-X and a meta package pointing to the newest version. That's propapbly not what "every distribution" does, but how a good distribution like Debian and Ubuntu does it.

not over a long time outsuide the LTS world because nobody will maintain
it (besides that it's not the main point of my last message) and how
does that fix your wrong assumption "in my opinion it is not sane to
call a service/package httpd if the name of the software is Apache"

we are using httpd on backends and trafficserver as reverse proxy - who
of both apache projects is listening when i scream "apache" to my servers?

> It is very very sane to have the version number in the package, and a package without version number pointing to the newest version. Eg. this is how the Linux kernel is handled in Debian/Ubuntu

well, than complain at your distribution

given that your mails are landing in the nic.at folder (we are a
registrar) and i know that nic.at normally has a very good technical
expertise i guess you are new there

may i ask you talk to your seniors how and where to complain about
distribution level changes and besides you are at the wrong list it's
nothing easier than make your owen overrides and aliases with
systemd-dropins so that you can call "systemctl
relaod/restart/start/stop" with whatever name you like no matter how the
distribution is calling the service

that's far quicker implemented and deployed even before you deploy the
update itself as it took to write your initial mail
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Ondřej Surý
In reply to this post by Reindl Harald
> On 15 Apr 2020, at 09:05, Reindl Harald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> BTW in case Debian/Ubuntu when they do RTFM it wouldn't be an issue at all

Is this the case of you being rude instead of getting the facts?

bind9 (1:9.15.3-2) unstable; urgency=medium

  * Fix the section for bind9 alias in the systemd unit [GL #1193]

 -- Ondřej Surý <[hidden email]>  Wed, 28 Aug 2019 21:35:44 +0200


$ cat named.service
[Unit]
Description=BIND Domain Name Server
Documentation=man:named(8)
After=network.target
Wants=nss-lookup.target
Before=nss-lookup.target

[Service]
EnvironmentFile=-/etc/default/named
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/named -f $OPTIONS
ExecReload=/usr/sbin/rndc reload
ExecStop=/usr/sbin/rndc stop

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target
Alias=bind9.service

--
Ondřej Surý
[hidden email]


_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

signature.asc (981 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald

your changelog snippet is handeled as signature seperator so a forward

when someone starts complaining "Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User,
and plenty of scripts and automation software (Puppet ...), know that
the service is called" i assume that he at least would have tried if
something is broken *before* complain and so it's a logicla assumption
the alias is missing

Debian/Ubuntu packages and what should be done there before the next
major release of the distribution don't belong here anyways

-------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht --------
Betreff: Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?
Datum: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 10:04:39 +0200
Von: Ondřej Surý <[hidden email]>

> On 15 Apr 2020, at 09:05, Reindl Harald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> BTW in case Debian/Ubuntu when they do RTFM it wouldn't be an issue at all

Is this the case of you being rude instead of getting the facts?

bind9 (1:9.15.3-2) unstable; urgency=medium

  * Fix the section for bind9 alias in the systemd unit [GL #1193]


$ cat named.service
[Unit]
Description=BIND Domain Name Server
Documentation=man:named(8)
After=network.target
Wants=nss-lookup.target
Before=nss-lookup.target

[Service]
EnvironmentFile=-/etc/default/named
ExecStart=/usr/sbin/named -f $OPTIONS
ExecReload=/usr/sbin/rndc reload
ExecStop=/usr/sbin/rndc stop

[Install]
WantedBy=multi-user.target
Alias=bind9.service
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Ondřej Surý
In reply to this post by Klaus Darilion-2
Klaus,

the default and preferred init system on both Debian and Ubuntu is systemd,
and the unit has proper Alias, so it is recognized also under "bind9" name.

The sysv-rc script doesn’t have the capability of aliases, so unfortunately, there’s
a downfall from the renaming, but it would not make sense to have a different name
for different init systems. If you are using sysvinit, the choice and the suffering that
comes from that choice is all yours.

The renaming was done as it was a logical choice, the service is starting a daemon,
and not a package, and daemon name is `named`. Also it is the name used by RPM
based systems and Arch Linux and Gentoo, so it was also made to make BIND 9 packages
in Debian/Ubuntu more unified with rest of the Linux world.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý
[hidden email]

> On 15 Apr 2020, at 08:51, Klaus Darilion <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hello!
>
> What is the rationale of:
>
> bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
> ...
>  * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon
>
>
> Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and automation software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I think it is very confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04 or Debian 11 is released.
>
> So I really do not understand this renaming.
>
> The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
>
> It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04.
>
> regards
> Klaus
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> bind-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

signature.asc (981 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Reindl Harald
In reply to this post by Reindl Harald


Am 15.04.20 um 10:08 schrieb Ondřej Surý:
> you need to stop being rude to people on the bind-users mailing list,
> personal attacks are not acceptable behaviour here. You should apologize
> to Klaus.

it's not a personal attack to clearly point out that discussions of
distribution level changes don't belong to upstream lists and that one
within a company should at least consult someone internally with more
expierience and after "it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if
the name of the software is Apache" i simply had enough

it's also not a personal attack to point out that you could stop press
"reply-all" on a mailing list so that your off-list copy which is
quicker but has no list-headers don't break my reply-list button and
threading

>> On 15 Apr 2020, at 09:59, Reindl Harald <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> given that your mails are landing in the nic.at folder (we are a
>> registrar) and i know that nic.at normally has a very good technical
>> expertise i guess you are new there
>>
>> may i ask you talk to your seniors how and where to complain about
>> distribution level changes and besides you are at the wrong list it's
>> nothing easier than make your owen overrides and aliases with
>> systemd-dropins so that you can call "systemctl
>> relaod/restart/start/stop" with whatever name you like no matter how the
>> distribution is calling the service
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Klaus Darilion-2
In reply to this post by Ondřej Surý
Thanks for answer!

So actually it is just a cosmetic change not addressing a real problem.

I will miss the bind9 service :-(

Klaus


> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Ondřej Surý <[hidden email]>
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. April 2020 10:15
> An: Klaus Darilion <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to
> named?
>
> Klaus,
>
> the default and preferred init system on both Debian and Ubuntu is systemd,
> and the unit has proper Alias, so it is recognized also under "bind9" name.
>
> The sysv-rc script doesn’t have the capability of aliases, so unfortunately,
> there’s
> a downfall from the renaming, but it would not make sense to have a
> different name
> for different init systems. If you are using sysvinit, the choice and the
> suffering that
> comes from that choice is all yours.
>
> The renaming was done as it was a logical choice, the service is starting a
> daemon,
> and not a package, and daemon name is `named`. Also it is the name used by
> RPM
> based systems and Arch Linux and Gentoo, so it was also made to make BIND
> 9 packages
> in Debian/Ubuntu more unified with rest of the Linux world.
>
> Ondrej
> --
> Ondřej Surý
> [hidden email]
>
> > On 15 Apr 2020, at 08:51, Klaus Darilion <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hello!
> >
> > What is the rationale of:
> >
> > bind9 (1:9.13.6-1) experimental; urgency=medium
> > ...
> >  * Rename the init scripts to named to match the name of the daemon
> >
> >
> > Since years, Debian and Ubuntu User, and plenty of scripts and automation
> software (Puppet ...), know that the service is called "bind9". I think it is very
> confusing and will cause lots of headaches once Ubuntu 18.04 or Debian 11 is
> released.
> >
> > So I really do not understand this renaming.
> >
> > The software is "Bind 9". The package is "bind9". The service for long time
> was "bind9". The config is in /etc/bind. Only the binary is named. So it would
> have made more sense to rename the binary. (actually the binary is not so
> important for end users: they install the package and manage the service and
> usually do not have to worry about the name of the binary).
> >
> > It would be great if you undo this change before release of 18.04.
> >
> > regards
> > Klaus
> > _______________________________________________
> > Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe
> from this list
> >
> > bind-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Klaus Darilion-2
In reply to this post by Reindl Harald
> Am 15.04.20 um 10:08 schrieb Ondřej Surý:
> > you need to stop being rude to people on the bind-users mailing list,
> > personal attacks are not acceptable behaviour here. You should apologize
> > to Klaus.
>
> it's not a personal attack to clearly point out that discussions of
> distribution level changes don't belong to upstream lists and that one

As it seems your are very smart you probably have noticed that Ondřej did the change in den Debian package and is also very active an this mailing list. Further I am not they only bind-user using Debian/Ubuntu so probably other bind-user are also interested in the reason for the renaming. Hence, I on purpose used this mailing list.

> within a company should at least consult someone internally with more
> expierience and after "it is not sane to call a service/package httpd if
> the name of the software is Apache" i simply had enough

Your personal experience is not the gobal truth. It is your opinion but other experienced pepole see it different than you.

Have a nice day
Klaus

FIN
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Alessandro Vesely
In reply to this post by Ondřej Surý
On Wed 15/Apr/2020 10:15:09 +0200 Ondřej Surý wrote:
> The renaming was done as it was a logical choice, the service is starting a daemon,
> and not a package, and daemon name is `named`. Also it is the name used by RPM
> based systems and Arch Linux and Gentoo, so it was also made to make BIND 9 packages
> in Debian/Ubuntu more unified with rest of the Linux world.
>


Calling it /renamed/ would have been beyond criticism...


Best
Ale
--




















_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

signature.asc (499 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: AW: Debian/Ubuntu: Why was the service renamed from bind9 to named?

Bind-Users forum mailing list
In reply to this post by Klaus Darilion-2
On Wed, 2020-04-15 at 10:35 +0200, Klaus Darilion wrote:
> Thanks for answer!
>
> So actually it is just a cosmetic change not addressing a real problem.
>
> I will miss the bind9 service :-(


Wait until you find out about Predicatable Network Interface Names and
iptables rules. :)

-Jim P.

_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

bind-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
123